Top Tips from Caro McCourtie:
1. Communicate to be Heard:
“I need to listen to them more and then communicate so you can be heard… it’s about speaking in terms that the other person can understand.”
2. Ask for Help:
“It’s about looking at what support you need to keep moving forward. There’s always a solution if things aren’t working out. Just make sure you’re asking for help and not going at it alone.”
3. Find Joy in a Lot of Darkness:
“Find the joy in a lot of darkness. For me, that was exercise to a very reduced capacity… and also going for walks… when I was well enough between treatments… French bubbles, you know, not all the time, but there’d be occasions that just helped me.”
3. Celebrate the Milestones:
“Celebrate the milestones, even when they aren’t positive… It was a significant life event, and it was important to recognise that.”
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business, work, people, feel, coaching, milestones, coach, helping, treatment, champagne, joy, breast cancer, absolutely, celebrating, acknowledge, talk, days, great, shame, moving
Caro McCourtie 00:00
I think an important starting point is Shame does not serve us in any way at all. It’s quite a destructive emotion. It’s like there is no benefit to it. So just take it off the table. And, you know, look at other ways. What sort of support do you need to keep on moving forward? There is space for all of us to be who we are when we’re authentic, we’re actually operating at our best. I need to listen to them more and then communicate so you can be heard.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 00:37
Hello and welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. I’m your host, Debra Chantry Taylor, and I’m passionate about helping entrepreneurs lead their ideal lives by creating better businesses.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 00:55
I’m a certified EOS implementer, an FBA accredited family business advisor and a business owner. Myself with several business interests, I work with established business owners and their leadership teams to help them live their ideal entrepreneurial life using Eos, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. My guests come onto the show to kind of share the highs and lows of running a business, but also I often have experts on the show, and today is one of those experts. So today’s guest has been likened to Winston Churchill, she has survived aggressive breast cancer, has developed four tenants to get through the cancer, and today she’s going to share with you how you can use those four tenets to get through difficult times in business and personal. Caro McCourtie is the founder coach and speaker at EQE coaching. Welcome to the show, Caro.
Caro McCourtie 01:39
Thank you very much. Debra.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 01:41
It’s always lovely to have you here. So Caro, I’ve been friends for a long, long time, and in fact, Caro is a leadership coach, which means that where I do the EOS stuff, if any of my leaders need help, I rely on people like Caro to actually help them. So why don’t you tell us about your your story? Because, I mean, that’s some really impressive things,
Caro McCourtie 01:56
A bit of a Big East so, so yeah, so look, I started in brand marketing. And, you know, I’ve worked in New Zealand, UK and London and Australia, and then when I was in Australia, I transitioned into executive coaching. I got trained out of the US and an accredited corporate coaching school and set up a very successful coaching, training, and also speaking business and with the coaching always sort of targeted, you know, business leaders, business owners. And that was going really, really well, and it was around. So I started that round about 2000 and around 2005 I wanted to get online. You know, how do I do the online stuff? And it was there, I ended up falling into, literally, digital marketing, and some strategies around internet marketing that I had a lot of success with. So then I started doing that, and also the coaching. And then with the digital side and my marketing background it involved, evolved into marketing consulting for SME.
So I was running two businesses, both the coaching and also the marketing consulting business. And so just to make my plate even a little bit more full, I also set up a health and wellness business with a business partner, and unfortunately, that one didn’t stand the test of time because they decided that their heart wasn’t in it anymore, and because they were the expert on the health side of things, we closed that business. And then after my treatment with breast cancer, and you know, everything I went through there, I realized, even though I’ve got a lot of skills and marketing. My passion, my true core, is with coaching and working, you know, one on one with people. I really want people to trust themselves and know that they they’ve got this, and that they do have the answers and that they can achieve the results that they want. And I love helping them do that.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 03:59
Perfect. Okay, so that’s kind of how you so you said you got trained over in the US? Yes, yeah. So how was that doing the training from the US?
Caro McCourtie 04:06
That was amazing, absolutely amazing. And I built a really good network, amazing network, of fellow coaches, and I even spoke at their ICF conferences as well. So I think what I saw with my career, I’ve always had a global focus. So love New Zealand, love Australia, but I’ve also done a lot of work with clients in the US and also the UK. I’ve got Canada, and I have had one client English speaking in Germany, but you know, so I’ve gone continental as well.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 04:36
Absolutely, that sounds fantastic. Okay, cool. So tell me even there’s some really amazing things you’ve gone through, and I’m going to cover those off in more detail. Off in more detail very shortly. What are those? Are two things that you’re most proud of, professionally and personally. What would you say the things you’re most proud of?
Caro McCourtie 04:48
Well, being likened to Winston Churchill was You must tell us more about that. Yeah. So that was back in the days when I was brand marketing and I won the contract. With their New Zealand for business class, with Paul Regez Champagne and Christiane de Paul Regez, excuse, my poor friend sent me this fax in those days likening me to Winston Churchill. And I’m like, Wow. I you know, I got those two famous quotes that we know for Winston Churchill. And, yeah, it was their way. They had a close association with the Churchill family, so I suppose it was their way to communicate how delighted, because it just meant it tripled the volume of their sales. So they were very, very happy. And then they paused for a second.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 05:34
Is that where your love of champagne comes from? Because I know that you really enjoy before then.
Caro McCourtie 05:40
So, so when I did the OE round Europe with my two girls, girlfriends in a combi van, we went to, you know, Espanet and Franz, I never say that correctly, and we ended up at the porridge boutique champagne chateau. And I just fell in love with it. So it was from there. So then when I moved into what was then allied lekker and working in marketing there, I said, Please, can I look after that brand? They had that brand. So, yeah, that’s that was sort of like the trajectory for that. So I developed the love of champagne, I think, when I was traveling around France, yes. So, so yes, but it’s always a, always been one of my favorites. So they’re all my favorites.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 06:29
Anything that spring Champagne is always good, right? Champagne? Okay, great. And so what about personally, you know, obviously you’ve gone through some pretty major things in your life.
Caro McCourtie 06:36
Yeah, I, I think two things there is, yes, I’ve been through the breast cancer, but even before that, I returned to New Zealand from 18 years in Sydney to take on primary caregiving role for my late father, and then when he passed away, then my mother, and that for me, was the most, I suppose, rewarding career position I’ve had. It was harrowing, and it was also a huge privilege, and it really required my leadership skills and my coaching skills to go through that I knew nothing about caregiving, both from the system perspective and also the, you know, practical nursing perspective.
So I’m very, very proud of that. I’m also pleased to be out the other side of breast cancer, and to be termed cancer free. And, you know, of course, I’ve learned a lot about that, like any world, it’s a niche, you know, like it’s a whole world. And I’ve learned about how many different types of breast cancer there are, you know, different treatment regimes based on your type of breast cancer and the stages that it’s at, and everything like that. And, you know, I’m really, I’m happy with how I approach that. And I did develop four tenants to help me get through it, which I think were instrumental. And it wasn’t like I sat down and went, I’m going to do this. They evolved. And they, they were just like, Yeah, my my linchpins to get through it.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 07:59
Because you can, you can sort of, you know, smile about it now, and you’ve had done an amazing job to come through, but at the time it was, it was a bit of a shock, from what I understand, and and you had no idea what to expect. And it went on, the treatment went on for what, 18 months.
Caro McCourtie 08:11
Yeah, it’s, it’s still, and I’m still considered in recovery. So I’m cancer free, but I’m still in recovery. And that’s another thing. It doesn’t just stop with the act of treatment. And again, I knew none of these terms, so I’m using them like they’re every day, but I don’t expect other people to know them. So with active treatment. So I started off, it was going to be one and done, and I never had a lump. But then when it was discovered, it was rather huge. What they took out was eight and a half centimetres. So you think, Well, how could you miss that? But it really was not a lump. And because I’ve got dense breasts, which is a whole other subject, it didn’t show up on a mammogram. So even in the day when it was discovered by the ultrasound, the mammogram and 3d mammogram are all clear. Dense breasts mean that you see a C white. Breast cancer is cancer is white. What I didn’t know then is dense breast you have, you know, double the chance of getting cancer, breast cancer. Yeah, so a lot of women, I’m actively involved with spreading the word around dense breasts, because our public system, at the moment, isn’t built to support that. In the past, when I went for my mammograms, it was almost like I was I made their job harder because of my dense breast.
So I used to feel bad that I was making their heart job harder, because it’s hard to get a clear picture, but I didn’t understand everything that I know now. So with after that first surgery, the lymph nodes, with all these screening I had, which was the ultrasound and the MRI, showed the cancer but didn’t, the lymph nodes were clear. Learnt that pathology has the last say, and after that surgery, so I had a SEPTA men and reconstruction immediately they had found it in five of five lymph nodes resected. So that’s when it moved, and this is my terminology, from one and done to Full Monty and. The Full Monty meant 21 weeks of chemo. And was meant to be 20, but I also went through the floods, so they gave me an extra week, 21 weeks of chemo, then more surgery to remove from lymph nodes. Everything that they do that’s designed to save your life also comes with a mighty punch and side effects, and then, you know, radiation and, yeah, and here I am, and here’s regrowing back, and it’s curly now.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 10:29
It’s actually really lovely Sun’s a really sweet night’s being in length on it too. But yeah, so it’s interesting, is it? Because we’re going to talk about the things that you actually developed to help you kind of get through that time. As you said, they developed over time. They weren’t just things you wrote down, but these things are also really helpful for any time in your life, right when you’re going absolutely, absolutely you talked in the beginning. You know, leaders often can have some doubts, some self doubt about, you know, whether they can do this, they they’ll often have times when, I know, when I and leading people where you start to, you know, wonder, is it all worth it? And everything feels like it’s overwhelming on top of you. So why don’t you share a little bit with us about these four tenants, and then we can explore what that means from business point of view.
Caro McCourtie 11:06
So the four tenants that I developed, the first one was, and shall I talk about it, like in the breast cancer sense? And then we’ll talk about it, how it can translate to business so, so with what I was going through, what came out, was to feel no shame. I was absolutely determined that I wasn’t going to feel shame about the changes that are happening to my body. It was beyond my control, and it’s not to I liken it to a war wound. And again, this is, you know, giving full acknowledgement to those that have actually fought, but then I you know, they’re fighting for their lives and fighting for a cause. I’ve also been fighting for my life.
So I just refuse to feel no shame about things looking different there, that I’ve got scars. And, you know, to feel no shame for asking for help, to feel no shame about any of it. You know, I was in a very vulnerable situation. I’m used to being very independent to, you know, to leading and, and this was really a time where, you know, it was about being open to and receiving, you know, support which went into the second one, which was say yes to everything and, and with the saying yes to everything, you know, we’re often taught, taught in a leadership perspective, learned to say no, the flip of that is actually to receive help. And I knew somehow that I couldn’t do this alone. And so I said yes to the medical, you know, support, the adjacent support, like from breast cancer foundation, dove house, Cancer Society, all of them amazing. I said yes to friends offering to do things for me, said yes to counselling without knowing if I need it. Said yes to physiotherapy. I basically said yes. I knew it was going to be a team that would get me through this. And yeah, I’m really glad I did, even if I didn’t know what I was signing up for, I just thought I need all hands on deck, you know, to help me through this.
Caro McCourtie 13:03
And then the third one was to find the joy in a lot of darkness. And you know, for me, that was exercise to a very reduced capacity I signed up for. And it was a friend of mine in Sydney that told me about this. You know, she’s gone through a really, I mean, all cancer’s challenging, a very, even more brutal cancer, and unfortunately, she’s fighting for her life again. And the CEP is a clinical exercise physiologist, and they’re designed to work with people like, if you’ve got a heart condition, diabetes and and also cancer, you know, people going through cancer, and that just meant that it was a controlled environment. And what I loved, and this was even more joy, is I did it through the Auckland University system, so I’m helping Masters of Science students get their degrees. So that filled my heart with so much joy, and they’re helping me, and I felt safe, and it was a, you know, dramatically reduced capacity. And also going for walks again, friends were kind to go for a walk, and a walk that would normally take, you know, maybe an hour could take three hours. It was x. I needed to rest a lot French bubbles, you know, when I was well enough, between, you know, treatments and that, not all the time, but there’ll be occasions that that just helped me. And rightly or wrongly, I looked at it like I’m getting a lot of poison put in my body to heal me with the chemo. So I know that, you know, champagne all alcoholic poisons, but this brings me joy. And it was completely signed off, you know, by my medical team. Of course, always with moderation.
Caro McCourtie 14:48
And then the fourth one was, celebrate the milestones, which relates into the the find the joy. But I think also what’s important here, and I’ll talk about this in a business sense as well, isn’t a lot of those miles. Weren’t exactly cheery ones. So somehow I knew that I needed to crowdsource, you know, support so, so when I got my diagnosis, we’re all hoping it was going to be a papillomatosis, which is a breast wart charming. And then, you know, got the life changing news. And you know, I rang around my friends and family that were coming. My sister was with me and said, Do you still want us to come? I said, Yes, absolutely. So having so that wasn’t exactly a celebration Wahoo. It was still a time of love and, you know, connection, and it was a huge life event. And so that happened, you know, throughout even when I first went to the oncologist, and second, actually oncologist, when I learned about my stats, which aren’t, you know exactly what I’d like after they found the lymph nodes. It’s a 58% 10 year survival rate. And I remember because I’d seen another oncologist, and that was brutal as as well.
The second one, I thought, oh, you know, I’ve been told the 58 and people around me said, Oh, but you’re fit healthy, so it’s going to be better, you know, you’re good for your age. So I asked her. I said, Oh, you know, given them fit and healthy, you know, could it be better than that? And she very dryly looked at me and correctly said, I can’t tell you what side of the 58% you’re going to be on. That was the first time that death was put on the table for me that, you know, I could do everything right and I may die. So again, that required a milestone. That was huge news, that now each part is a step, and not all of it was good news, but having that recognition of the signal, you know, it was a significant event, really helped me, and also, like all through each stage of treatment. And you know, this clearly relates to to business as well, like one step closer to the end goal, which is like being through active treatment and being alive.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 17:01
Perfect. Okay, so let’s start thinking about some of those things from a business perspective. So feel no shame. I mean, I must admit, I just actually had a skin cancer removed yesterday, and I’ve got, I mean, when I signed up the form from the doctor and it said, you know that, yeah, it says, along the lines of, you know, scarring is kind of natural, and we can’t guarantee that you won’t have a scar. We can’t guarantee it will go away. And I think if I’d been in my 20s, I would have gone, oh, no, I don’t want to scar. I’m 54 this week, next week, and I was like, I knew that was going to come and, you know, get a scar, that’s absolutely fine. And I’m not, I’m not worried about it anymore. But feel no shame in the business sense, can mean that you can take some of these things and you can really make mountains out of malt holes sometimes can’t you?
Caro McCourtie 17:43
Well, you know, wherever we’re at with our own business, and again, whether we are self-employed or we do have a team of people that we’re, you know, ultimately responsible for. You know, not everything goes to plan. We may have made some choices that don’t serve us, or we’ve done everything that we back on and think was right, but it still didn’t play out. And it’s just important not to feel bad about that, not to feel bad about yourself, to feel shame that you’re not where you want to be. There’s always that opportunity to get where you want to be. It just means that there’s maybe more learning different strategies I really like, it’s one of my favourite sayings. Is Virginia Satury.
She was a clinical psychologist, and she did what she called a silly study. So, and that was, how many ways are there to wash dishes in order to get dry? You know, clean dishes, clean dishes, I should say, and there was 250 different ways. So I use that as a great metaphor, that even if things aren’t going as you want, there’s always a solution. It’s about, you know, implementing, you know, developing a strategy, implementing it, if it’s not giving you the results you want, pivot and then, you know, try it again. And of course, there’s going to be times where we don’t feel so cherry. And there’s, you know, tools we can use for that to, you know, to keep that flame burning. But I think an important starting point is Shame does not serve us in any way at all. It’s quite a destructive emotion. It’s like there is no benefit to it. So just take it off the table and, you know, look at other ways. What, what sort of support do you need to keep on moving forward?
Debra Chantry-Taylor 19:26
I think you make a really good point. It’s like, yeah, at the end of the day, we, we get taught in in university and business studies that, you know, businesses grow on this beautiful kind of S shaped curve, and it’s all beautiful smooth sailing. But business isn’t like that. You know, we hit points where it just, you can’t, you can’t do anything, and things go wrong, and you have to you have to change, and you have to accept it, and you have to move forward. I had a really, I heard I had lunch with a friend today, and one of the things that they sort of said to me this, you can have somebody who’s got 20 years of experience, but 20 years of experience can be seen in kind of two ways. It could either be somebody who’s had actually only really one year of experience, but 20 times over, which means they’ve repeated the same thing over and over again. Or you’ve got someone who’s genuinely got 20 years of experience, because every experience they’ve had, they’ve learned from, they’ve moved forward, and so therefore they’re growing into the next experience. And I think that is part of of business. It’s like, if you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, not quite so great. But if you can take it and you can learn from it, don’t feel any shame about the failure. But what can I take from it to move forward? Is the only way you’ll get through it right?
Caro McCourtie 20:21
Absolutely, I think if anything, it’s, it’s the capacity to learn is more important than berating ourselves if things don’t, you know, pan out the way that we had hoped.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 20:34
Perfect. Okay, the next one say yes to everything. And I love the way that you put this, because, yes, we are always taught that we should say no to more things, but this isn’t about we still got to prioritize and make sure we are saying yes to the right things. But this is about actually asking for help, isn’t it? And it’s tough as a business owner or as a even as a leader in an organization, because asking for help sometimes feels like you’re admitting that you’re no good or that you’re not good enough to actually do that. So how if somebody, sort of, you know, somebody wants to ask for help, but they feel like, Oh, if I ask for help, it makes me look stupid. What would you suggest?
Caro McCourtie 21:08
I would want to, first of all, understand more about what they’re, you know, what’s driving that, that they feel that that’s a that’s a negative thing, you know, again, I’m not a therapist, so it’s not about going back into their childhood and that. But just to really understand, you know what the driver is. And then, you know, work through that. And then, you know, look at how is that, you know, working for you to hold that belief. Look at what could be some other ways you know that they could look at things and, you know, help them. Or how can they go from there to there and to modify that belief. Because sometimes we really want to hold on to something, you know, we have this sort of unintentional or unconscious righteousness. Well, you know, I’ve got to do it by myself. Because if I don’t, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it’s working through that belief and ideally, if the person is receptive to it, replacing it with a belief that they actually feel they can connect with an alternative belief. But essentially, you know, we there’s so many studies out there that prove that as human beings, we need to connect. And you know, we’ve gone into our own businesses for a particular reason. You know, we’re a particular makeup of people that do, but that doesn’t mean that we’re lone wolves. You know, we still need that connection, and it’s about working with other people in a way that’s going to help us get the results that we want.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 22:41
I see I love it. Yeah. So it’s exploring where beliefs are coming from, trying to understand not going back to child. No, no, that’s not my territory, no. But being able to replace it with something that actually really ties you in, kind of emotionally, to the decision that you’re now making. Therefore you can actually change the way you approach it.
Caro McCourtie 22:58
And one of the first things could be that there may be something there, that it is considered a bad thing to ask for help, you know, that they have, again, not going to therapy territory, but more rewarded, or they feel more validated if they’ve, you know, struggled themselves, and yet. So it’s working through that.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 23:18
And sometimes environments can make it difficult. And we once did a talk at a very, very big law firm here in Auckland, and it was about the imposter syndrome, and we sent the invites out to for this talk, and we weren’t getting very many responses. And what we actually found out was that the calendars, because we’re all on Microsoft Office, the calendars were shared amongst everybody, and people were actually scared of accepting the invitation, because if they accepted the invitation, it popped into their calendar, and it was a workshop about imposter syndrome. And so they were concerned that people would then think that, well, you know, you’re, you’ve obviously got an issue, you’re going to an imposter syndrome workshop. So we actually changed the title of it just to ensure that people didn’t feel nervous about coming along to it. But environments can do that. They can make it difficult for you.
Caro McCourtie 23:56
Absolutely, that that is a fantastic, you know, fantastic example, it’s and, you know, I’ve heard people say, Oh yes, but when I’ve asked for help or I’ve got help, you know, it hasn’t been very good. You know, it’s not, you know, I’m better off to do it myself. So what I would say to that well, is like, let’s look at what broke down in that chain. You know, was it the brief? You know, do we need to work on the brief? And I’ve seen that with clients before, where they don’t provide a great brief. I’ve seen that back in my advertising days, and on the client side, you know, it can be that side, or also, you know, who they’ve who they’ve picked. It might be the wrong company that they’re working with is not in alignment with values. Or you don’t know, to you, you know, to work with somebody, there’s always a solution if 10 people don’t work out, you know, look at that. Maybe if 10 people don’t work out, might be like, Look at yourself. But also the 11th coach, yes.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 24:56
Yeah, that’s a really good point, actually, yeah. I think the brief is really important. I know. I know. Actually in my own business, sometimes, because I think so fast, and because I talk so fast, I think I’ve said something really, really clearly, but the person hasn’t necessarily heard what I thought I have said. So I always turn it back on myself and go, Okay, so it’s actually my response was to make sure they have heard what I thought I was trying to say, and I’ll ask them to kind of repeat back to me what I’ve what they’ve heard me say, and then it gives me a chance to go, oh, no, that’s actually not what I meant. This is what I was actually thinking.
Caro McCourtie 25:26
Absolutely and, you know, I like the phrase communicates you so you can be heard. And, you know, I think I’m a great communicator. I’ve had that same sort of situation where it’s like, oh, they’re just not getting it. But I’m a good communicator. I’m really clear. It’s like, no, no, what language are they speaking? And I’m not talking beyond English like that. It’s just like, Okay, so I’m not actually connecting with them. I’m not resonating. I need to, I need to listen to them more and then speak in terms, you know, respectful terms, in a way that they, you know, can understand. And that’s how you know that whole communicate so you can be heard. And you know, we all go through that, not even though we may be speaking the same English, we’re also not.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 26:09
That’s good point. Okay, find the joy. I mean, that’s that’s gonna always be a chat. In business, we all have bad days, right? Whether you’re a leader with a business owner, you’re gonna have days sometimes where you just gotta go. You know, what is going on? So how does it? How do we find the joy on those days?
Caro McCourtie 26:28
Well, I think, for me, what works, and this is about people finding what brings some joy. So it’s asking, Well, what do I like to do? I would suggest something healthy rather than something destructive for ourselves, you know, so you may enjoy a couple of glasses of wine, but to have two bottles, that may not be so so good, but you know, like for me, it’s like walking really helps, you know, connection with others just, you know, stepping away is really good time with my animals, you know, that brings me absolute joy. So I look for ways when things are, you know, like if I need to shift my state, you know, like where I’m at, because we can start to go down a rabbit hole.
You know, even as a positive person, I can feel myself like, oh, you know, and you start to drown almost. So it’s like, Well, okay, so I’m not feeling great. What can I do right now? I’m opening the fridge and, you know, eating your feelings. It doesn’t necessarily, you know, that brings momentary joy, but something like a walk, or, you know, like what I’ve suggested, connection with others. They’re really healthy ways, I think, just to find joy. I love mornings. So it’s, it’s also, I suppose, I could get up at the morning and ignore that it’s a beautiful day. Or I can get up in the morning and see, my goodness, what a beautiful day. Let me go outside and smell that, you know, for me, morning air, or if night, it’s like, oh wow, gosh, that you know, really beautiful, clear sky. So it’s just really moving from that cloud that we have going on into sunshine for ourselves.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 28:16
And I think we talked about this before we came into the podcast studio, but it’s also about it is about understanding what is right for you. Because we often kind of get into the trail of the track of we should do, or we ought to do, or this is what everybody else does. About a classic example is one of my clients who runs, she’s my podcast editor. So hi, Neil. He will, actually, he’s, he came to me today. I’ve got this list of things that I want to do in the business and one of the things when he had, like, a sports car, and he wanted a flash watch. And I just said to him, do you wear a watch? Do you use a watch? And he’s like, Well, no, not really. And it’s like, so why would you want to watch? He’s like, Well, that feels like it’s success. It’s like, well, it might be for some people, but really, if you don’t like watches, there’s no point at all. I actually love watches, and I have a really beautiful watch because I always wear a watch. I love using the same the time.
But for some people, that’s not important. I love fast cars and sports cars. And so for me, having a fast car and a sports car is not about a status symbol, but it’s about the joy of driving it. I love driving really fast cars. So what we were talking about with him was, actually, you know, we often get forced down. My parents were very traditional. They wanted me to find a good husband, settle down, get married, have children. That was what they wanted for me. Turns out it wasn’t what I wanted for myself. And so we could be very careful. Very careful that the things that bring us joy is not the same. So what brings you joy may not bring me joy, and vice versa.
Caro McCourtie 29:28
Absolutely, and I think should can be there it is. And you know, the shooting all over yourself. So yeah, it’s really looking and this is where it’s important with any of the tenants anything in life, ask yourself quality questions. Now those quality questions, you know the theory is open ended are the most productive also closed ended. So yes or no answers can also help, because that can help us get clarity and in the open ended helps us dig in further and ask yourself questions to find out what. It is that you really want? What is it that brings you joy, or what is it that you need support in if we if we’re saying yes to everything, so asking yourself those questions, removing like I should be a certain way. I need to, I need to listen to them, because they know more, they may have more experience. And they’re also wired their way. You’re wired your way. So look at that person and see where, you know, is it actually a match? There may be somebody else that has more experience that might be a better match for, you know, for your wiring, because it’s not, I always say to clients advocate stretching, because that’s how you grow. But we don’t want to stretch to the point that we break because we’re trying to, you know, make ourselves a different person. I also use another analogy, square peg, round hole. You know, these are all common ones, but they’re really important. So I often, in my mind, go through things like that. So it’s like, Well, okay, here is this really a square peg? You know, in a round hole doesn’t mean I’m wrong. I might feel that, and then it’s like, okay, that’s not really me, you know, like going through that round hole that’s not right for me.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 31:10
And like you said, doesn’t mean that square is right or wrong, or sort of circle is right or wrong, but it’s just about being in the right position. I think this happens a lot in businesses like we talk about, obviously, values in the business and personal values as well. There has to be an alignment there. And just because you don’t share the core values of the business that you’re working with, that does not make you a a bad person. Doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. It just means you’re not aligned with that organization. There’ll be another organization out there that will absolutely, you know, you’ll, you’ll just fit into that beautiful round hole because you’re a ram peg and everything’s great.
Caro McCourtie 31:42
Yes, exactly. Great. Yes, exactly, exactly.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 31:44
It’s just funny, because I think we tend to, we do. We put all these labels on things around we are, what people should or shouldn’t be, or what they you know, what we expect of them.
Caro McCourtie 31:53
There’s a place for all of us to be the way that we are. Yeah, I think. And this is why I really want to encourage people. And again, I work mainly with, you know, business leaders. They’re still human. They still have, you know, they may have achieved a lot of success, and they’re, they still got, you know, thoughts, feelings, insecurities, doubts. It’s like knowing that we do who we are, as we are, is, is really fabulous. Course, we can always learn, we can always grow. We can modify behaviours. The starting point isn’t a pile of crap start. Starting Point is really, you know, like a diamond, it’s just helping you shine more brightly, recognizing that your multi facets are fantastic as they are.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 32:40
Diamonds and shine well you’ve got me.
Caro McCourtie 32:42
I mean, I’m all in. Let’s see what brings me joy.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 32:46
Okay, so the last thing was about celebrating the milestones. And I think this is one of the things I have to say. I’m not sure New Zealanders do particularly well in terms of, not just, I mean, you talk about all the milestones, but in business, even the small wins, like I’ve said it a few times in the media just recently, is that I work between Australia and New Zealand. Australia and New Zealand, and I can have an Australian team, and let’s just say we had like, three measures. We’ve got revenue, profit and a couple of measurables. So that’s four things, and they’ve got four rocks they had to achieve in the quarter. If the Australian team gets kind of three out of the four the measurables and three out of four of the rocks. And I asked them to grade that quarter in terms of how they think that quarter went, they’ll go, oh, it’s an A, maybe, maybe they’ll go a minus. I asked the same of of a Kiwi team, and often with exactly the same numbers, exactly the same achievement rates, they’ll be like, Oh, it’s probably a C. And it’s like, wow, it’s really amazing that we are so harsh on ourselves over here. And I think it’s because we don’t celebrate this morning, so we keep celebrating all the little milestones, we’re in the right frame of mind to celebrate the bigger successes as well. Is that fair to say?
Caro McCourtie 33:48
Absolutely, and you know, I’ve lived in both countries, and they’re very different, you know, the cultures of both, even though people you know often lump the two together, having lived in both very, very different, and you’ve identified that. And, you know, New Zealanders also like to celebrate, but potentially a different way to Australians are very comfortable in acknowledging themselves as a rule. And New Zealanders tend to not be there a little bit more, you know, low key. They like to be. You know, I think that’s part of the branding of a kiwis. So again, not, not projecting on every, every New Zealander. So what is important about it is, yes, celebrating the milestones that are clearly wins, but also celebrating the milestones where you may not have one because you’ve still put the work in. So let’s say, you know, thinking back in my advertising career, we might pitch for a new business, and you know, we’ve still put that effort in. And you know, we might have worked ridiculous hours to pitch to. To a prospective client, if we don’t get it, that doesn’t mean that we haven’t put in that effort, that we haven’t worked well as a team, that, you know, we have still won in a way.
Caro McCourtie 35:13
We may not have that new business, but it’s still we’ve gone through that effort. That’s why I made that distinction with you know, when I was celebrating the milestones through my treatment, not all of them were, you know, happy clappy events, so and so too. In business, I think it’s just when you work together. So let’s say it’s a team event, whatever the outcome, acknowledge and celebrate that as an individual. It’s really important to acknowledge, you know, achievements I mentioned to you I’m moving at the moment, and, you know, certainly got myself into a little bit of a whirlwind mentally about all the things I’ve got to do. And I could feel myself starting to get too much into, I think it was turning into a um twister there. So what I did was take a step back and actually acknowledge all that I’d achieved, that I’d actually hit all these milestones. Because what was happening was it’s like, oh, yes, I’ve done that, but I’ve got this, I’ve got this, I’ve got this, I’ve got this to do. And it’s like, yes, and I’ve done this that the other and I think that’s really important in a business context, there’s always going to be more work to do acknowledge everything that you’ve achieved, and that can also help refuel us to keep going.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 36:26
It’s really interesting. Dan Sullivan, I think with as it Hardy is his last name. Look at what his name is. They’ve actually written a book. And one of the key things is about always measure backwards. Because if you’re always chasing the thing that’s ahead, like you said, there’s always something more ahead, but you’ve got to actually look and go, How am I now compared to a year ago? Wow, look how far I’ve come. And that’s really important, is to do that measure backwards, because if you always just chase the next thing, they gave a really great example of a guy who was like, you know, once I get to 2 million, then I’ll be happy, then it was like 4 million, then I’ll be happy, then at 6 million, I’ll be happy. He never got to happiness, right? Because you’re always chasing the next thing, and there’s nothing you’re not acknowledging. Wow, I came from nothing to 4 million. That’s pretty impressive, you know. So I think that you’re right. It’s not just about celebrating all the successes, but it’s just about thinking about what you’ve actually achieved in that journey.
Caro McCourtie 37:14
I wonder if it’s like sometimes we don’t because we don’t want to seem like the tall poppy. We don’t want to seem like we’re full of ego or full of bravado. We don’t want to be flashy or whatever’s going on for the individual. It’s not about that. It’s actually really, again, about that self acknowledgement, about building that relationship with ourselves. None of us are perfect. We all have our off days, and there is an awful lot of good about us. So acknowledge that. Acknowledge when we are actually happy with our performance and when we’re not, what can we learn from that? What do we want to do differently? And then move forward again. Feel no shame. Move forward.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 38:00
Okay, we’ve got lots and lots of tips, and it’s really great from a coaching point of view. So if anybody’s sitting here listening to this podcast, when do you feel it’s kind of appropriate, or what are the telltale signs that you might need some help from an executive leadership coach?
Caro McCourtie 38:16
I would say that if you’re not where you want to be whether it’s whether it’s sorting out a situation with your team, whether it’s sorting out, you know, something with your higher ups, whether it’s, you know, within your own career, I think it’s really like your hair and you’re Looking at that, and you want it to be different, but you don’t know how. So, you know, I employ coaches as well. I actually had a mindset coach moving through, you know, my treatment, you know, we, I suppose in some ways, we often coach each other and things like that. It’s like when you can’t figure it out yourself again, no shame about that. It’s like that other person. And the thing with coaching is it’s about helping you find your own answers. And certainly a coach can draw on experience, but it’s always has to be what’s right for the you know, for the client. So I think that if things the people I work with are used to success. They know success so it’s not success is not new to them. It’s when they feel that they’re not achieving, that what they know is success in any particular area. They could then benefit from somebody to, you know, work with them to help uncover what’s really going on, develop strategies and then hold them accountable. And
Debra Chantry-Taylor 39:47
I think made a really good point there that mentors and coaches often get confused, and it’s not so that a coach can’t also be a mentor, but a real Coach, and we’re both qualified coaches. Obviously it is. It is about helping the client to come to their own. United States. We’re not there to tell them what to do. We’re not there to share experiences, per se. We sometimes do if we’re asked to, but it’s really about helping them to come to the answers, which actually lie within.
Caro McCourtie 40:10
Yes. And I think, over the years, and I’ve done, you know, a lot of different forms of training with with coaching and leadership and things like that, I am such a huge advocate for the person being who they are, and that’s why I love the phrase authentic, leadership. And authenticity really came out in my treatment, because, you know, couldn’t be anything else but authentic, really, with what I was going through. And then, you know, realize it’s a bit of a buzzword also in, you know, in the business world as well, there is space for all of us to be who we are when we’re authentic, we’re actually operating at our best. That’s a great platform, you know, foundation to work from. So it’s about how to be an authentic leader, so how to lead as who you are and still achieve those results. So it’s not again, all about hand holding and going, you’re just the best person you know. You know, love you so much. It’s about, well, okay, this is who you are. This is how you’re wired, and you still need to be accountable and get those results. So how do we do that?
So I just want, you know, been around for a while. I just really my wish for people would be to stop feeling that they have to be different to who they are. They have to be a different type of person. They don’t need to be any more or less. They can be who they are. And then it’s about learning, you know, how to be both of those things. And you know, that’s something else I learned in treatment and so many great metaphors for, you know, real life, for professional life, is that two opposite things can coexist at the same time and still be, you know, true. So I was told I had a treatable breast cancer, but I was also told it was aggressive. It’s like, Well, which one is it? You know, chicken or fish, chicken or fish or whatever. And it was actually both. And I think, you know, you can be authentic, and you can also, you know, get the results. You don’t have to be a particular type of person to get the business results be authentic and learn tools.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 42:17
And yes, exactly, exactly, fantastic. Hey, look, it’s obvious. You’re very passionate about what you do. Tell me what your ideal client kind of looks like.
Caro McCourtie 42:22
My ideal client would be somebody that takes responsibility for themselves, that wants to learn and grow, that does know what success is like, that they have, that their ego. We all have ego, that their ego doesn’t necessarily drive them, that they really have that openness for when I say betterment, I’m not contradicting what I’ve just said about authenticity, but they really want to, you know, learn and grow and achieve the results, like I love results. And, you know, I like moving forward, so people that want to do that again, I’m very clear, because over the years that I’ve been coaching, it’s important to have that clarity. I’m not a therapist, so it’s, you know, whilst there may be a healing aspect to coaching, if they have some more healing, I would be recommending, and they can do both see a therapist and see a coach.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 43:25
Hey Caro, look. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your wisdom with us. Amazing journey that you’ve been on and well done for you know, coming out the other side in a positive in a positive way. So that’s really great. Really pleased to see it and give you time.
Caro McCourtie 43:36
Thank you, Debra.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 43:37
And we’ll put Caro’s details in the podcast notes. If you want to get in contact with Caro, you can do that.
Caro McCourtie 43:43
Thank you.
Debra Chantry-Taylor 43:44
Thank you.
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Debra Chantry-Taylor
Certified EOS Implementer | Entrepreneurial Leadership & Business Coach | Business Owner
#betterbusinessbetterlife #entrepreneur #leadership #eosimplementer #professionaleosimplementer #entrepreneurialbusinesscoach
Certified EOS Implementer New Zealand
Certified EOS Implementer Australia
Certified EOS Implementer UK
Certified EOS Implementer NZ
